Notes from the March 24th  Board of Trustees Workshop

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The following is a partial transcription of the board's discussion of Tetra Tech's sewer capacity report and its implications.

Trustee Braun's observations on promises were the highlight of the meeting.


Northfield Township Board of Trustees Meeting Notes
March 24, 2015

Call to Public

(00:13:45:00)
[Board Member Comments]

(00:15:20:00)
Fink responds to Dockett and Dale Brewer, explains easement acquisition

(00:17:50:00)
Fink explains US-23 status vis a vis WATS:
"If WATS votes this down they will take the money dedicated to the ATM part of this project and it will go elsewhere.  The WATS vote in mid april is a critical vote.  It's in total an 80 million dollar project of which sixty will probably go elsewhere if the ATM portion does not go through."

[00:21:25:00]
[Fink]
clarifies terms of sewer capacity study vs infrastructure asset management plan

(00:22:56:00)
[Dockett]
We've been looking for this project for twelve or fifteen years...

(00:24:40:00)
Fink explained what WATS was, WATS vs SEMCOG, WATS' component constituencies, explains TIPS, the HOV lane, anti-sprawl constituencies, federal funding, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
(00:34:00:00)

(00:34:20:00)
Agenda Discussion Item 1:
Annual Report from the Washtenaw County Road Commission
[Roy Townsend, Managing Director]
(01:06:36:00)


(01:06:48:00)
Agenda Discussion Item 2.
The Sewer Capacity Study Presentation by Tetra-Tech's Brian Ruble

[This is where it gets interesting]

(01:34:45:00)
[Braun]
When you talk about the 1500 increase, 1500 REUs, that is if we built the basin, and, is that above and beyond the 2,738 that we're committed to, I mean, or is it not enough to even accommodate the ones we're committed to?

[Tetra Tech]
Yeah, yeah, just like you said.  It's 1500 anywhere, any new ones wherever they occur, if it's Green Oak, if it's within Northfield, so your committment is 2,738 and you're going to need to make a committment to expand the plant when you get to 1500.  

[Braun]
So even with 1500, we can't make a committment.  I mean even with the basin we can't make a committment.

[Tetra Tech]
That's right.

[Braun]
Thank you.

[Dockett]
I'm not sure I understand. What we're talking about is we have, say on 7 mile road there's only been like one connection there.  But have you included all the connections there?

[Tetra Tech]
I included buildout within each of those special assessment districts.  

[Dockett]
So they can come online with getting the problem with the hundred...

[Tetra Tech]
No.  If all your special assessment districts developed, you would need to commit to expanding that plant before they turned the ground.

(01:36:18:00)

[Untranscribed: Professional Grade rationalizing by Manager Howard Fink]

(01:48:38:17)
[WWTP Supervisor Tim Hardesty]
If we built an equalization storage tank today, would that tank still be useful five, ten years down the road when we had to expand the plant or would that money be wasted, so to speak?

[Tetra Tech]
Oh no; it would still provide value.

[untranscribed]

[Fink]
But the one thing I want to be clear about, is that if you add up the connections that you have outstanding, and you add up your existing flow, you're above capacity from that perspective even if you put in a storage tank.

[Tetra Tech]
Oh yeah, even if you built tomorrow...

[Fink]
You're above, so the policy, storage tank or no storage tank, I mean, storage tank is something that we need to be thinking about today.  But storage tank or no storage tank, the policy question still exists is how do we do, how do we deal with 400,000 or 500,000 gallons of capacity allocated in existing S.A.D. districts and how do we approach that? And that's the big question.
(01:49:49:00)

[Engstrom]
[muttering, microphone off, something about S.A.D. maps]

[Tetra Tech]
The shaded areas on the map are actually the properties that are, represent the properties that are paying an assessment currently.  I took those properties and your current land use plan for those parcels, assuming some level of development for various land uses and multiplied that together to get a built-out demand for those four areas.     

[Engstrom]
All right.  You know, the 7 mile one, you know that, and maybe you, Wayne, could tell me, that whole back parcel, that northern piece is what the county had bought, right, for the...  

(01:50:41:00)
[Dockett]
Uh, yes, but only 7 mile road was in the, a lot of that was in the, it ran across to Nollar I believe, no, not Nollar, to Spencer, that property that's now owned by the county...

[Engstrom]
Right, right, so all of this is no longer in play, right,

[Dockett]
Well, there was only, there was only 14 of us on 7 mile that signed up for this and uh Gary Wellings, he had his subdivided for the half acre lots and I think maybe he had, he just sold, he just sold it for $200,000.00   So, this is why I can't understand, why is there additional 169 REUs for 7 mile road when there's only about 17 properties?

[Engstrom]
That's where I was going with the question.

[Dockett]
I can't understand how he come up with it

[Tetra Tech]
We recognize we might be a little conservative with that area.  We assumed most of the parcels would develop at some modest, very modest level. Maybe it's 60 or 70 at an ultimate but we had to come up with something.

[Fink]
We have talked about this.  There's a bunch of property in that area that's zoned recreation-conservation.  We don't know if the county's gonna put in facilities for toilets and things like that.  I mean, we know that, but, on the 7 mile, even if, that's why I keep going back to North Territorial, because it's such a small number in the scheme of the analysis, it's...

(01:52:31:00)
[Engstrom]
Right, that whole shaded area, so, do you take into consideration that well this area's wet and will never be built on - can you move that shaded area around?  That's in proximity to the lines?

[Dockett]
What page are you on on that?

[Engstrom]
Uh, 4

[Dockett]
Thank you

[?]
[muttering, microphone off]

[Engstrom]
 
(01:53:00:00)
[Tetra Tech]
What we, we did [unintelligible] on the land use plan is as a recreational purpose, is assume a very low density, of building on that property.  Very low.

[Fink]
But if it's on the Future Land Use plan (Master Plan) or the existing zoning as zoned for housing they don't... Brian can't take into consideration that the area is, it's gonna be a challenge to build on.  He's gotta go off of the zoning that exists.  And so, if it's zoned, for example MDR, or Low Density Residential, he's gonna take a calculation and multiply what is the total amount of homes that can go on that land. And now, we know realistically that that area is pretty wet, pretty challenged.  We know that partially from the Donna Lane property and how difficult it's been for folks to develop the Donna Lane property.  But he can't go into that level of analysis.  

(01:53:54:26)
[Engstrom]
But like the whole North Territorial... you have quite a few jogging lines all around... That can be all reconfigured, right? I mean, those lines and the shaded area?

[Tetra Tech]
That was phase one of the special assessment district.  Those are actually the parts that the people who are paying on the sewer that's there right now. That district was originally conceived to have been multiple phases.  But that's phase one.  Those properties have access to a sewer currently.   

[Fink]
So if the sewers in those areas are not used, and you can figure out that they're not used and never going to be used then you can take that capacity and use it somewhere else. But you can't change the map.

[Engstrom]
Right.

[Otto]
As well as in North Territorial S.A.D. there, you have industrial in that area.  And you had to account for if they were large industrial buildings built in that area yes you would have anywhere,

[Tetra Tech]
I had an industrial demand that I used.  
[Otto]
Ok

[Tetra Tech]
Some industries will be high water demand users.  Some will be smaller.  I trust my average accounts for that.
[Otto]
I'm not seeing a lot of industrial buildings wanting to be built in that area, but, I think that's the reason why the number is probably a lot higher than in other areas.
[Tetra Tech]
I would agree.
[Otto]
Not for the sake of building houses.
[Dockett]
That's not zoned industrial. Very little is industrial up there isn't it?
[Otto]
North Territorial is.  There's some industrial in that area
[Tetra Tech]
There's a table that explains how I did it.  Various fractions of land uses there.
[Dockett]
I [unintelligible] I didn't know it was industrial.
[Otto]
I think it's like from five, or the 23 to what?  Is it Spencer or ...
[Dockett]
The sewer goes to Nollar, goes to the railroad tracks...  
[Otto]
To the railroad tracks
[muttering by all]
That's industrial

(01:56:16:15)
[Fink]
So, yeah, I mean that's, that's the question... and, um, that's the policy question.  Um

(01:56:30:00)
[Braun]
Is the policy... Is the policy question you're asking then, that we would take for example, the REUs that we promised, that we promised at North Territorial and give them to for example a large development that choose to be built somewhere else... in Northfield Township?  And then when North Territorial did develop at that point we would have to expand the plant.  We would have to make a plan to expand if that ever happened.  But then all those people who are in that S.A.D. on North Territorial, whose taps we kind of gave away or gave to a development - they would have to wait literally years to become connected.  It wouldn't be instantaneous because then we would have to say, "oh, ok; now we have to put in our action, you know, take action and build the plant."  So, it's kinda like right now they expect to be able to use it but if you take it away they'd have to wait years and years...

(01:57:36:16)
[Fink]
I think that that
[Braun]
to actually be accommodated
[Dockett]
That would be a lawsuit.
[Fink]
I think that is the policy question.  I wouldn't actually summarize it like that.
[Braun]
How would you summarize it?
[Fink]
Well, because I think there are multiple ways to think about it.  Again, there's no right or wrong answer to this but as I said, uh, um, uh, you may or may not have the development at North Territorial for a very long period of time so the question is um, an..an..an..an..y'know, really you should ask Brian what other communities do because you don't want to create your... you don't want to put yourself in a position where you're effectively creating a moratorium on development for a district that may not build out for fifty years. Um, so that's, so that's one part of it but the other part of it is, um, is that it's not, it doesn't have to be an all or nothing proposition, in my mind.  

(01:58:35:14)
You could say, for example  that you could come up with a chart for example.  You could say that at some point when you get to 150,000 gallons of capacity and you're at the 150,000 gallons of capacity mark until you get to the point where you have to expand the plant, then you put the moratorium on new development, so that you always have capacity for somebody that would come into North Territorial, so if you think about, if you think about, let's think about, ok, let's just, and I'm kind of going over this in more detail than I wanted to, but I, it's, it's really, I need to and it's important.  Let's think about what the zoning is at North Territorial.  So Raytech is an industrial use.  A Business Park is an industrial use at North Territorial.  So let's think about how often would a New Business Park at North Territorial be built.  And so we could talk to developers and we could talk to brokers and we can think about what is the, what is uh, uh, uh, uh, absorption rates...

[Dockett]
Raytech's not in the Sewer District.

[Fink, looking smug]
It is part of the... it is...

[Dockett]
But they're not on the sewers..

[Fink]
But they're currently hooked up to the plant

[Tim Hardesty]
No
[Dockett]
Sewers only...

[Fink]
It's not hooked up to the...

[Dockett]
Sewers only go to the railroad track

[Tim Hardesty]
It stops at the railroad track.

[Fink]
Oh.  My apologies.
So, well let's think about if a Raytech goes into the area of North Territorial.  How often does it happen?  How often does a big box player, a Meijer or North Territorial is an area that in some ways is zoned for large commercial development.  How often does that type of large commercial development go in?  So we can have all these conversations about what is the absorption of this type of development.  And then we can say to ourselves what is a reasonable time period uh uh to allow for if we get to say 80% or 85% of capacity... what's a reasonable time frame to say we need to stop or what is an amount of additional gallons that we need to hold back in permanent reserve so that let's say we do use some capacity at North Territorial for something and then we do get a Meijer or we do get whatever, a Menards, or, I don't know, Amazon or whoever comes and wants to build, we have that amount of capacity there that we can accommodate so it it I would agree that what you describe is the policy [gestures toward Braun] but I think there are a number of ways to to look at it from a sort of long term perspective...

(02:01:16:00)
[Braun]
It's just my take on things that you're trying to encourage this residential development and that is what's going to be the miracle that suddenly makes North Territorial develop so what comes first the chicken or the egg?  And all of a sudden you've got development and everybody seems to say well that's gonna, you know putting in these big residential developments is what's gonna create the need or is gonna encourage for example Meijer or Menards or whatever to come to North Territorial so then you may find yourself quite suddenly without and isn't it something we promised to those people.  I mean how can you just, I guess I just don't understand; is that a legal question?

[Fink, interrupting Braun]
It is; it is a legal question.

[Braun]
I mean...

[Fink]
... partially a legal question.

[Braun]
... Will those people have to be notified that, hey, we're using this and even though you're in this S.A.D., guess what,

[Dockett] [unintelligible]

(02:02:07:21)
[Braun]
It sounds so much like government, where you tell people this is what you're gonna get and you go through this whole thing to create the S.A.D. and then they turn around and it's not what we promised,

[Fink, interrupting Braun]
I think we have to

[Braun]
... even if they don't use it

[Dockett]
Rooftops come first

[Fink]
I think one of the things that we have to remember is we have to put the numbers into perspective.  Right?  We're looking at numbers that I'm not sure that we all have perspectives on the numbers.  What's an average gallonage for a big box retailer like Meijers use? [Fink addresses Brian Ruble of Tetra-Tech] Just off the top of your head? I won't quote you.

[Tetra Tech]
Twenty thousand gallons a day, maybe.

[Fink]
Twenty thousand gallons a day  

[Braun] ?

[Fink]
We can't say

[Braun]
All our documents say REUs

[Fink]
I don't have the ordinance in front of me to convert it back to REUs.

[Tetra Tech]
That'd be a hundred

[Fink]
A hundred REUs
(02:03:04:12)

[Tetra Tech]
Eighty

[Fink]
Or eighty REUs.  20,000 gallons.  So if have one Meijer that builds, you have 20,000 gallons, you have 421,000 gallons, that's the thing that I want that...  I'm not advocating for one way or another.  Really I'm not.  I just want... I know you gave me a little smile there but it's true; I'm not.  Because the question is you could, if, if, if we wanna reserve all capacity we're in a moratorium for development.  If, if, if all capacity is reserved, then, we're done.  And so, that's the...

[Braun]
I agree with what Marilyn [Engstrom] said - that there's some areas on 7 mile where we could move some things around...

[Fink]
No!  You can't!  No you can't because the 421,000 gallons is the big number.  You know, 169 REUs at 43,930 gallons is a very small number in comparison.  And when you're looking at this at a macro level rather than on a micro level, you're gonna get to the same analysis because you're way over... If you add up
the REUs that are committed, you're not just over, you're way over.  So, I, I, that's the decision you're at.

[Engstrom - perking up]
Right!  Yeah, someone has to do something today regardless of growth or no growth because we are over.   

[Fink]
If you add up all of the capacity that you have out there

[Engstrom, interrupting]
that we have already, yes, correct,

[Fink]
you're not just at capacity, you're over already over, so if we find 40 REUs, for example, that aren't used, it's not gonna matter on the numbers.  It's not gonna matter in the calculation.

(02:04:53:00)
[Engstrom]
And allowing for new growth some place, if you're gonna, you know, rob it from one area to give it to another area, that new area can be paid by developers, tap fees, whatever, so you can start building your kitty immediately, that, it's there, and we know we need to do it anyway, with the plant expansion, correct?

[Fink - addressing Tetra Tech]
What do other communities do?

[Tetra Tech]
I'll give you an example.  I'm helping Saline right now with the very same question.  And this has not gone to their council yet.  It's not written down to my knowledge.  But they are considering a development into Saline Township, serving them with sanitary sewer.  We did an evaluation inventory for them exactly like this for the current city limits.  And they could no provide both treatment for the new are and their current population.  They couldn't do it without an expansion.  I believe the manager is going to propose that they provide service outside of the city, collect the money for connection fee, and then expand the plant when the existing city limits develops further.  So, from that standpoint they are not reserving that capacity for the current population.  They are providing for it as it is demanded in the future.

[Engstrom]
Right, and then pocketing the money for the reserves.

[Tetra Tech]
Correct.  That is my opinion.  The majority of the communities do exactly that.  The majority of the communities that I serve if they developed all their service area tomorrow, would not have the treatment plant capacity.  They expand the plant as the need develops.  [Shrugs]

[Engstrom]
Anyone else have any thoughts, any questions?  It's awfully quiet in here.  All right.  Brian, Thank you so much for a wonderful presentation.  I appreciate all your time.  If there are any questions call Brian for further information.


(02:07:20:00)
Agenda Discussion Item 3.
3. Waste Water Treatment Plant request for Rebuild of Tertiary Sand Filters

(02:14:20:00)
Agenda Discussion Item 4.
4. Board Room Construction – Construction Manager quotes

(02:28:40:00)
Agenda Discussion Item 5.
5. Code Enforcement Contract Renewal


(02:::00)
Agenda Discussion Item 6.
6. Board Retreat Goals Discussion is tabled